Berkeley

Valentine

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Peter

to be fair, the berkeley people made total fools of themselves

 Valentine

apparently the actual anarchists weren’t even students

Peter

that seems like a copout

 Valentine

eg the ones who threw the shit

does it lol? I feel like that’s a pretty damn important detail

Peter

whenever things go wrong, its someone elses fault

 Valentine

especially if retaliation is going to be cutting funds from america’s best public university

…except sometimes other people actually do it?

Peter

isnt that state funded though?

I don’t think the federal government can do anything about that

 Valentine

like what’s the argument there, that the students should be blamed for the actions of non-students anyway?

apparently Berkeley receives federal funds as well

Peter

that there’s no evidence it was non-students

i guess that makes sense, that’s why the dear colleague letter has impact

http://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2017/2/2/14482840/anarchists-uc-berkeley-violence-protests-california-golden-bears

lemme read up a bit

the anarchist spin is new

 Peter

I mean, I hear this sort of things about like, BLM protests too when they go bad

 Valentine

 

I mean, I feel like it’s reasonable to assume that the majority of protestors are peaceful right

 

like apparently there was an independent peaceful student protest that got interrupted by these people arriving from off-campus

Peter

seems like you’re right

dunno. My gut instinct is to be skeptical whenever someone says like, ‘it wasn’t OUR group that was doing it, WE were peaceful’ just cause its the obvious no true scotsman cop out.

It also seems like these anarchists have done this before, which makes me wonder how 150 people can just appear on a campus and not have anyone stop them from entering (i mean, berkeley does have campus security). In the future I’d be more satisfied if the peaceful protesters left so police could go and arrest the idiots responding with force, instead of being human shields.

All of THAT being said, I did watch the livestream of the riot and there were definitely students participating

 Valentine

I feel like if 150 violent protestors arrived on Columbia’s campus there wouldn’t be much campus security could do to stop them lol

idk if ~no~ students participated

Either way, cutting funding would be horrible

The UC system is already hemorrhaging money

also I love that breitbart is inching ever closer to becoming state media

and by love I mean am disgusted by of course

Peter

its not government funded?

breitbart, that is

unless you mean, ‘not critical of the government’

 Valentine

I mean, Steve Bannon is on the government payroll lol

I meant like personally invested and implicated in the regime

like, I really doubt Cheeto Benito would be threatening to cut Berkeley funding if this happened to someone else

Peter

LIVE STREAM: Berkeley Milo Yiannopoulos Riot Turns Violent

here around like 35 minutes in you can see the protesters

 Valentine

also like, “no true Scotsman” doesn’t reeeally apply here lol

Peter

assuming that only the people in black were the ones who were not students

 Valentine

in class lol

Peter

You realize that government and news being closely tied is like…really common? and a serious problem, one that gamergate has been complaining about for a while? there are tons of anchors and writers and journalists who have either had government roles or are related to politicians or are otherwise involved in politics.

 Valentine

have I ever supported it before lol

Peter

you’ve never noticed it before

 Valentine

lol

I feel like we’ve complained about corrupt media bla bla bla plenty of times before

my point was more how gross it is that of all the media organizations to have such a hand in the government it has to be ~breitbart~

Peter

xD

 Valentine

like that’s some fascism gone mainstream post-apocalyptic bullshit right there

fall of Rome tier moral degradation

Peter

I mean, I don’t really like breitbart either but I don’t see why this is uniquely bad compared to any other news organization being corrupt with government ties

 Valentine

cuz they’re fascists

quite transparently

or, at the very least, openly alt-right and xenophobic and racist and etc

which, like, is just nazism by a better name

I just love the hypocrisy of the immigrant country tearing itself apart over whether it likes immigrants

really they should just deport all the white people back to Europe

Peter

rewatching the video again and seriously its not like these students are really torn up about the fact that supposed strangers are becoming violent. Seem to be pretty hype about it.

 Valentine

they completely ruined American values

eh, I’d probably be fairly hype in the moment ngl

I recognize the objective necessity of non-violence but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a visceral hatred of Milo and everything he stands for

Peter

Like, I think white nationalism is bullshit obviously. I just find it ironic that the politics you’re railing against are literally the same bullshit identity politics applied to a different race

 Valentine

I feel like that’s a horrible mischaracterization but ok

and like, I’ve never suggested a Liberia-like project ever lol

Peter

read this statement: <ethnic category> needs to look out for its own people

 Valentine

so anti-immigration is something that no version of leftist identity politics supports

it’s like – you ignore intersectionalism whenever convenient, but then pretend like it’s the problem when it actually ~~solves~~ the problems of the left

Peter

how does it solve?

 Valentine

I don’t think the statement ever reads <solely look out for its own people>

Professor [REDACTED] just showed us the tautology club xkcd

Peter

If the goal is political power for your ethnic category, and you’re currently a minority, of course you’re going to be more open armed to even smaller minorities than you. But I can think of a number of times where BLM protesters shut down protesters of other minorities for not being super gungho about only black rights

or, well

people who claim* to be BLM protesters

anyway, you should really watch that video

like there is no world in which that crowd does not have some culpability, even if the supposed violent instigators were other people

I also think its worth mentioning one other thing on berkeley, and like the left in general – something that thank god the right hasn’t picked up on yet. The redefining of words as violence is horrendous and needs to stop.

offensive words* as violence

 Valentine

that’s just like, your opinion man

Peter

i mean, do YOU want to be the one that makes it ok to start reacting to words with violence? Because thats how you get political repression and actual fascism

 Valentine

also: [REDACTED]s post in the [REDACTED] group is a sad reminder that the US no longer really belongs to the set of “Western liberal democracies”

actual totalitarianism maybe, I feel like fascism has a certain value structure that the left doesn’t

Peter

fair enough

also I feel like this doomsday rhetoric is doing more damage than like…richard spencer. We elected an unpopular president, it happens. We’re going to live through, what, another 16 presidential terms or so? It’s going to happen again.

 Valentine

eh, I feel like doomsday rhetoric keeps people on their guard

Peter

no it doesn’t, it devalues words and makes it so that when something is *actually* the end of the world, no one gives a shit.

 Valentine

I also feel like you’re underestimating the seriousness of having elected a short-tempered bullying man child to the most powerful office on earth

yeah the point is I feel like you would perennially start shifting the goalposts

Peter

I mean, clearly there is an entire government system and populace working to stop him. Like the ACLU lawsuit went through in…less than a day?

like 20 hours?

 Valentine

Like, after the #muslimban are you really going to say that the stakes aren’t higher than normal?

and the ACLU lawsuit didn’t stop him!

And the reason the response was so effective was because people were naturally outraged

Peter

The reaction to that ban was bipartisan, swift, and effective.

 Valentine

like, I don’t understand your logic here

it definitely wasn’t bipartisan unless you count John McCain as the entire Republican Party lol

like you don’t want people to ever be outraged yet you rely on the idea that they will be when it matters but when they are you say they shouldn’t have been?

Peter

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/01/republicans-trump-muslim-ban

When it did matter, they did

 Valentine

also, ~~it wasn’t effective~~

Peter

be outraged, that is

 Valentine

The travel ban is still in place

All they did is stop him from deporting the people who were already in airports

like trump won this one lol

And people pretending like the ACLU suit overturned the ban are part of the problem

Because now everybody is fucking complacent

Like, people from those seven countries can’t enter the US now

Peter

if by ‘won’ you mean, now has the entire country working against him, sure. He already had to overturn the greencard portion of the ban, and the court cases haven’t even started

 Valentine

And also the Christian priority is law now

so then yes, the outrage needs to continue to sustain public interest in actually overturning it

Because the work isn’t done yet

Peter

Like, I’m not saying don’t be outraged over Trump’s actions, just stop with the end of western values stuff. Its not true.

 Valentine

but like – low key is

That’s why this is outrageous

Peter

The fact that we can register outrage and do something about what is currently happening means that we are obviously still a country of WLD values

 Valentine

like you’re saying people should be outraged but never just point out the plain truth of why this action was bad

let’s see how that goes then lol

and whether that ability to dissent still registers with the government

Peter

There is no country in the world that would allow immigrants in from the airports if this wasn’t a WLD

nor be forced to turn over the greencard part of the order

 Valentine

considering a house and senate that will never convict (or even fail to appoint a nominee)

*impeach rather

Not convict

Peter

its been a week

 Valentine

it wasn’t a great week

Peter

still

I think you have to be blind to say that the dissent of the populace hasn’t registered with the government

has it registered with trump? probly not, but he’s fucking lunatic

 Valentine

let’s see if it results in actual change then

Peter

a fucking* lunatic

anyway, it wasn’t the end of the country when we literally had a civil war over slavery, I don’t think this is going to be the end of our western liberal democratic tradition. I think a bigger danger to *THAT* is the blatant pandering to identity groups that we see from both sides of the aisle these days >.>

well, more than that, is the blatant redefinition of what justifies political violence

like part of what I don’t like about the end of WLD rhetoric is that it emboldens anarchists like those that supposedly attacked Berkeley.

 Valentine

Eh, I guess WLDs have always generally been terrible at actually following the standards they are supposed to

I also think the “WLD” is a 20th century concept

Peter

well, alright, we survived nixon

according to a friend of mine at Berkeley who was at the protests, there were many students who were actually protesting violently. Trying to get numbers.

Where are those crowd counting experts when you need them >.>

according to said friend, also said that many students were dressed as the anarchists or had ties to the anarchists

Peter

at around 1:31:00 of the vid I sent, the protesters or anarchists or whoever you want to call them start beating other people with flag poles

looks like they knock some girl unconscious

around 1:45:00 they start a dance party xD

which is like in full swing at 2:10:00 – they’re literally singing to song lyrics xD

at 2:24:00 people start playing instruments (???)

looks like they move away from where the event was actually taking place to the college town at some point, probly around 1:30 in

and then 2:55:00 set up some garbage fires

at 3:04:00 they block a car of some random guy

At 3:10:00, destroying a random bank of america

more dancing at 3:15:00, to the tune of ole ole

these are like

clearly students man

around 3:30:00 they march to the center of the city

and at 3:31:00, destroy and loot a random store

a bank

some more atm destruction at 3:41:00

and again at 3:51:00

and a starbucks at 3:56

even if every violent action taken was entirely by anarchists, an entire crowd of berkeley students followed them and cheered them on throughout. There is no world in which I buy that the students do not take some responsibility.

protesters threaten the cameraman at 4:00:00

FRI 1:15AM

 Valentine

see if only they started dancing without the looting

but yeah, i believe that students were involved

idk if that means ~all~ the students were involved or w/e

Peter

i mean of course not ALL of them were

but this is like, definitionally no true scotsman right?

 Valentine

i mean, assuming somebody is making the argument

Peter

well, we can’t just write it off as ‘anarchists just bein gosh darned anarchists’ is what i mean

one of the guys on a CNN interview says that the rioters at berkeley might have been affiliated with breitbart news

can we just go ahead and say that CNN is no longer unbiased moderate?

 Valentine

what does “one of the guys” mean lol

If it’s one of those panel shows where they get a bunch of talking heads from different opinion groups to speak then ofc not

Peter

I guess that’s fair

though the anchor seemed very accepting of the premise

 Valentine

I mean yeah, that’s just what they do

Remember when CNN would have debates over whether global warming was real

Peter

no

did they? XD

 Valentine

Im pretty sure lol

the media has always sucked

And I’ve never been a fan of CNN, for reference – my dad keeps getting annoyed because whenever he watches it I just bash it lol

Peter

XD

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/world/middleeast/iran-missile-test-trump.html?ref=oembed

what the fuck is happening

SAT 12:16AM

Peter

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/317884-washington-state-judge-halts-trump-immigration-ban-nationwide

Exactly a week

the news is still coming out, but nonetheless this pokes a decent sized hole in the ‘end of wld’ rhetoric

i appreciate that wld can also be short for world

 Valentine

hashtag cultural imperialism

there is the financial deregulation tho

Peter

I’m not saying that what trump is doing is correct or even sane. I’m just pointing out that when he did something blatantly unconstitutional, the wheels spun as they should and within a week it was struck down.

 Valentine

lego batman movie is out

but yeah, the last week has given me a little more faith in the judiciary

hooray for appointed positions

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